Maker Vault Compensation Updates and Status

Thanks @LongForWisdom. I think the main frustration is that the you guys working on this (and we are grateful) aren’t getting enough support from the whoever controls on the money. I don’t know that me as an amateur vault holder & non-coder will be of much help really.
If it’s important enough to solve & everyone wants to get there (including the foundation) then it’s weird that there’s no funds available to solve it professionally? The cost should be immaterial in context. It’s crazy that @MakerMan should be putting up his own money along with his time.
I don’t know that funding an investigation to get to the facts would amount to an admission of guilt. It’s not going away, so should be in the interest of the foundation to squash it soonest.

My comments are not directed at the troopers doing the work here… it’s always been against the decision makers not pulling their weight.

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They don’t give any F’s at all

20200602_2253 Based on problems with vault data, the compensation group is going back to original compensation model and working up the compensation plan the working group can all agree to. The hope is we will have this ready within a week to present for forum polling/discussion before moving it to an on-chain poll and governance votes.

Sorry for the delay folks. I think it was necessary to explore this even though it dead ended not so quickly. It gave us a better perspective that hopefully will help us move forward with determination and ultimately successful resolution for everyone. I know this has been hard on all of us and the process tortouse like. I think my own biggest dissappointment is the longish time frame here. But if we put this into perspective against what courts do with these things should be significantly faster even if it probably won’t satisfy anyone fully. We all are learning how to apply new decentralized models and unfortunately are finding it requires more people, working longer to get the same thing done as a centralized model.

I am hoping to have a better update by the weekend and no later than early next week.

Be safe, sane, and secure folks.

EDIT: One last thing a few of you have written me offering help and I really appreciate this and would take people up on it but what we really needed was a developer who could pull on-chain data and then be able to cross check issues as they cropped up. It literally took me a week to get an answer on missing collateral. A few weeks just to get the on-chain data for my first report. It looks like good crypto devs are hard to find and even harder to hang on to. Right now I think the working group is pretty settled with our movement forward and data from my liquidation and compensation report on hand. We are still going to need an auditor to check over everything and no-one in the group has even moved forward on that step other than to have it ‘as a step’ in the compensation plan.

If a professional on-chain analytics group wants to assist here please feel free to contact me [email protected] or hit up @rich.brown or @LongForWisdom as contacts on this because we know we will need an auditor here at some point once governance decides the conditions for compensation to simply check my work which will be a vault by vault compensation breakdown over the ETH BT liquidation class. 320-960 vaults more or less depending on conditions and time frames.

BTW: A number of you fall outside this class - I am keeping notes on all of you I just don’t know exactly how we are going to deal with the first class of compensation claims, much less the class that falls outside the first. The compensation group is hammering out details of this as I post this update.

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@MakerMan Do you know where we can see the original compensation model? I can see here On-chain vault compensation poll, draft that compensation of vault holders was passed, but where is the poll for compensation?

Thanks,
Chris

Original poll.

https://vote.makerdao.com/polling-proposal/qmwfvvguaf8rz8xwgv2cqnzzt9t5h6epzh17qmk2ue99y4

The above poll affirmed governance intention to move forward on the issue positively (otherwise this would have just dropped) and put up the funds to generate the report I subsequently created. Original compensation report/analysi is basically in my liquidation report. So if you want to look at the first compensation model look there.

I kept thinking these should be broken out into Two different reports but really they need to stick together. The liquidation report gives context to the compensation analysis/report.

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20200608_1310 (EST) Update: Final changes made to Compensation Plan document are currently being reviewed by team for finalizatio to present to governance. Everyone in Compensation team busy with their own life events. The goal here is we finally settle on a plan we can all agree to within a day or two before presenting the plan formally to the community.

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Thanks MakerMan, really appreciate all your work on this

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hi there,
any updates on this?

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Updates?! It is very hard to stay patient…

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It is hard for everybody. Without people like MakerMan nobody would care and you’d have zero chance to see your collateral again

Greatly appreciate @MakerMan’s time on this!!

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What’s your vault number?

And you are who ?

It’s my understanding Makerman is working on this

Hi All,

I’m working with MakerMan as part of the compensation group, and wanted to provide a status update.

Currently, we are making final formatting revisions to the compensation plan document, and will be posting it to the forum for review soon. After that, we will be presenting the plan on the Thursday governance call (either this week or next depending on how quickly we finish final revisions).

Thanks everyone for your patience!

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Thank you everyone for patience. I am in the middle of my 64hr+ work week (one on, one off). Things have been hectic for me so my time is going to become more limited and as a group we decided to elect @monet-supply as the new compensation project lead.

Don’t worry, god willing I won’t be going anywhere but I wanted to step back from being the ‘self appointed’ lead on this trying to drive everything to step back somewhat and let someone else elected by the group to drive the train for everyone.

Hopeful we will be moving what seems to be a very heavy burden sooner rather than later. I looked at some of the discussion from the last CC on the topic of incentivizing people to work within the protocol. @rich.brown I know is pretty adamant that we don’t get this until we can figure out the details of compensating people for effort.

There are many people that step up here because we have an idea we might be able to make a better world by making a better ‘bank’ but eventually people run out of gas, because they are paying for their own gas (the idea of making time to literally ‘give away’ takes something from somewhere). Rich put it well - people need to eat - but go further than this. If governance doesn’t figure out HOW to compensate people we are always going to get people leaving because they simply are unable to sustain effort with nothing coming back.

I don’t see our MKR whales offering to create some new initiatives backed by some financing on their own (maybe we really don’t want this anyway) so the best we can hope for is to offer them via governance mechanics to provide that financing. Insert plug for MIP14.

We are going to need a really good auditor just to check my work. I might be good, but like everyone am fallible and so far no-one has really stepped up who is equipped and experienced to tackle the auditing for this compensation proposal should it pass governance polls/votes.

Everyone wants a decentralized this that or the other thing. My analysis on this subject suggests you can pick any job in a centralized system and it will cost 2-3x in a decentralized one. This is mostly due to additional checks and balances required to do this in a decentralized manner. Look at POW with BTC. Solves the distributed ledger problem at a pretty high computational/energy cost. I believe the same will be true generally of decentralized systems.

Unfortunately we can try to run at these things but in the end a high degree of patience, and yes work and time will be required to reach the goals we seek. We are also going to fail miserably, in costly ways, often. I don’t think we can avoid this, but we can at least be preparred for these results.

I think people understand this. Particularly our vault owners and those in this system. I am a vault holder. I really love I don’t need permission to drop collateral into the system and mint some cash. It is my job to watch my liquidation point and try not to be overly aggressive unlike our standard financial systems that lever right to the edge in centralized ways, with centralized administrators. There is so much work to do it is daunting. The idea we could break this so that everyone in this system loses everything, scary. But this is what makes building a better world so exciting. We might not be able to change the BS existing systems, but what we might be able to do is transform them from the inside out.

It is why I am here (and I think many others) because I believe if I want a better system for myself I need to offer what I have got. We have to do this for ourselves, no one except you , me all of us can make this happen. I believe in time not just I will be rewarded, but perhaps everyone on the planet. I want to urge people who read this. I know many of you here got wiped out and are feeling left out. You aren’t. I stand and will always stand here for the bigger group of people, gently and politely nudging and sometimes pounding the table to move this system in the directions I think are best for the entire community and not just one part of it. It is my hope that as long as I have breath I will be able to contribute positively to this space. It is also my hope that more people join computer keyboards with minds and similar goals to not just expect something, and someone else to do it, But that (as Rich says) you will join US in making Maker better for all of us. The beauty of this project is that there is so much to do, I think there literally is a place for everyone with energy, talent and above all the desire to contribute. I think in time we will solve the compensation issues - not just for those who got caught in BT - but for everyone who contributed and contributes positively to this project.

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As always you are very well appreciated for your endless efforts @MakerMan. Even giving the time and effort to compose everything you’ve said. May good blessings come to you kind sir. You’re one of the few people that make this world a better place. You have my support sir.

I finally got to read the whole report and make a couple annotations on the side. As mentioned before, it’s very well done, @MakerMan.

I would like to make it more readable for the general public? I imagine a lot of the MKR holders / community in general don’t have the technical skills to fully understand it (I’m not myself at 100%). Not sure if this would be useful at all. Maybe @monet-supply can give me some input here.

For example:

  • is it useful to have this report in a more “dynamic” format instead of PDF (something like a GoogleDocs or Gitbook)? I think having the possibility to comment, ask questions, and propose improvements to it would be quite useful.
  • page 2:
    • I would make the legend a little bit clearer. Maybe a link to the concepts would be good too.
    • This one might be an overkill but I find it useful in general. I would use one vault (or example) and link the concepts to the numbers.

Or maybe all this belongs somewhere else.

Anyway, happy to help.

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Thanks @MakerMan for all your work so far and you persistence.

Thanks juanjuan for the nice comments. I have not forgotten you and once governance gets us to a point of decision I can take the data I have and roll out vault by vault compensation I may hit you up for some double checking of my work with the spreadsheet data.

Actually I would be happy to have someone take the document and do an edit. I actually have this in LibreEditor or Writer so can punch it out however if you would like to take a stab at editing to make it easier for people to read. This was a report that I was trying to get out in a pretty advanced time frame and keep it reasonably concise so yeah it could use an editing cycle. I can e-mail you a copy or probably better we google docs it? At some point if I can ever get my hands on an accurate history of ALL vaults I really want to re-do this whole analysis ON ALL vaults but this is a much larger project that requires key elements I don’t have in place yet.

I think it is why I have stayed away from working on that. It was probably the best I was going to do with the constraints I was working under and I didn’t see the value of returning to that because the compensation report probably was going to be redone anyway and in truth a better liquidation and vault status report system is something that ‘should’ come under Maker governance perview ala MIP13 and compensation for it via MIP14 (or something like it).

IF I can raise more funds and then enlist some talent making a really good Maker Analytics site would be of use. First goal is a really solid live analysis of vaults vault actions etc. I see @hexonaut working on a start with mkranalytics.com (a plug for your site Sam :smiley: ) so he with his team might just get together what I am thinking before I can even get a start on it.

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I forgot about this thread. Life got in the way. I thought it fizzled out.

@MakerMan @monet-supply
It’s good to hear that something is coming together for a compensation plan.

I don’t know the plan’s details, but it seems like it’s near done. I would have considered allocating a portion of future SF revenue for compensation. Maybe other ways are better? No idea.

Years down the road, I think the Black Thursday event will ultimately be an event we can proudly point to as a show of strength. It’s in our history, it happened, and it shows that incentives within MakerDAO are properly aligned.
Poor governance -> Governors foot the bill

There’s something important to consider with regards to compensation though. There may be great arguments for not compensating. It was the risk they took. They knew going in. Sucks to suck.

It does suck to suck though… I’m sure a lot of people are salty about what happened. I would be. When we try pointing to this event, what’s stopping them from producing counter critiques?

It doesn’t cost us that much to do right by them. It can be a one-time pass, like the DAO hack. There weren’t any more ETH forks.

What do we gain though? We have that many fewer people (rightfully?) upset with us. I think it will be a good look for Maker to eat this.

We vote on it like any other poll!

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